I think you're very wise to ask these questions, Justin. There's an old marketing truism that applies strongly to church leadership: "We get what we measure."
If we measure success by attendance, we'll create systems and programs and processes designed to increase attendance. Of course, mere attendance isn't bad... but it may not be a great way to measure success in ministry. Measuring the wrong thing will almost always get us what we're measuring, so we have to make sure we're measuring the right things... things that tell us the truth about our efforts.
Simplistically speaking, disciple-making is a multiplicative effort. Established leaders work with potential leaders. Potential leaders grow into leaders who also need to learn how to spot and train other potential leaders. This is the pattern of Jesus > Paul > Timothy > Faithful Men who can > teach others. In my opinion, we tend to believe this can be accomplished relatively quickly. It's easy to find leaders who have been serving on their own and put them to work. It's harder to find non-leaders and incubate them to the point where they're spiritually self-sustaining and able to help others be as mature. America doesn't have a discipleship/apprentice tradition any longer, so your job is to turn a very big ship. That doesn't happen quickly, and mobilizing an already-ready group looks suspiciously like success. It's GREAT, but it's not exactly making disciples at that stage.
Discipleship can only be measured individually, by someone who is both mature in the faith and who knows the individual well. When the leaders gather all of that data in one place, only then can we see the progress we're making. It can't be done accurately while also being impersonal.
May I suggest an approach I've been working on? In 2 Peter 1, we read about adding to our faith goodness, adding to our goodness knowledge, and so on. While some disagree, I do see that as a path toward maturity:
Faith
Goodness
Knowledge
Self-Control
Perseverance
Godliness
Mutual Affection
Love
In my experience, most people are somewhere between not having faith and not having self-control. When we see someone who has faith, exhibits goodness, has gained some level of knowledge, and then displays self-control, we usually consider them a mature (or maturing) believer. Because the list ends with Love - as God describes Himself - it seems that adding true, agape love is the final step in what we can become here on earth. We want to jump right to love, but it's clear that, for most, that's going to take some time.
I recommend that leaders have a spreadsheet for each person they're discipling, and are able to identify where the disciple needs work. This helps the leader know what to talk about, helps the student know where they should be changing, and lets another leader know - if needed - where anyone in the church might stand with regard to spiritual maturity and leadership potential.
Then, with THAT info available, you will be able to chart and aggregate the corporate growth over time of the individual members of your congregation.
Sorry for the long response... I'm praying for you now.
I’m betting Elexio is pretty similar to Planning Center. I was thinking that their Workflows tool could work really well for this. Each stage in the pathway could be created as a Step in the flow.
Good stuff man. One metric that is woefully missing in “discipleship” is disciple-making. Jesus made it clear that a follower becomes a fisher of people. Paul said new creatures are ambassadors of Jesus. Two sides of the same coin.
If we measured disciples making disciples then it would be obvious why the American church has been in decline for decades.
I agree. I'm getting some of that at our church. I think seeing disciples become disciple makers is something that requires a long tenure. I'm the shortest tenured pastor at our church - 10 years. But most of our leaders are people who have stayed following Jesus after our senior pastor came 23 years ago. So they have been disciples and are now making disciples. I heard one preacher say, a good measure of your ministry is how many spiritual grandchildren you've produced.
As a numbers geek, and a person who serves as a denominational developer, I love these sorts of articles. I've spent a ton of time trying to understand how to measure this sort of thing based on a persons outward activities. This is now bookmarked and I look forward to hearing more in the future!
Have you read Daniel Im's book "No Silver Bullets". He wrestles with many of the same questions.
Hey Justin, really interesting post, thank you. It’s so hard to measure something as intangible as following Jesus, so this looks like a really good way in. I’d love to hear how it works in practice. I’m a Discipleship manager for the UK Methodist Church, and we are also exploring metrics at the moment. We have a framework for what being a disciple looks like, based around 12 practices that cover both inward and outward expressions of faith, like prayer and justice-seeking. One thing we’re gently exploring is asking people to rate themselves on all 12 areas with a 0, 1, 2 score. A church can then get an average, and see which aspects of discipleship they are stronger and weaker at, and track this over the years. There’s lots more info here if anyone is interested: https://www.methodist.org.uk/faith/a-methodist-way-of-life/
Being a disciple of our Lord is between the person and our Lord. Those called themselves disciples must know if they trust and obey our Lord's commands. There is no halfway. Therefore, how can anyone measure a disciple? Do we know their lingering and hidden sins? That includes pastors. I have helped pastors to overcome their porn addictions. Were they disciples who gave in to sexual sins? That would be a mocking to our Lord. Only our Lord knows each one’s heart.
But if a person can love like our Lord has loved, then you have a disciple.
I actually agree that creating disciples as Jesus charged us requires people to get to know other people's stories and sins. We actually emphasize that party of Discipleship in our group Bible studies and in regeneration recovery ministry. Would you agree that a disciple should exhibit fruit of the spirit?
Justin, first of all, may our Lord bless you for your heart and your desire to serve Him. We are called to make disciples. We know that not all Christians are disciples, but all disciples are Christians. Witnessing a true disciple will take time because it is a marathon journey on the Narrow Road carrying a cross. Many give up because it is against the flesh's desire. We cannot be sure about a true disciple only through their sharing of their repentance of sins. It is only a good start on the journey. What are the fruits of the spirit? A pure and child-like heart could be one. Learning to love and expect nothing in return is another one. Gentle and humble in heart is a must. If you would like to measure them, there are some signs, and more likely only the disciple knows:
Discipleship belongs to Christ . Fellowship belongs to Congregations. Measuring “sense of belonging” year over year means you have a chance at building a community of Christ that acts as a corpus of Christ. I love your perspective Kyle and that you are willing to ponder out loud ❤️😎
Great stuff! Discipleship is indeed hard to measure. While baptisms, class attendance, and leadership roles are tangible, the New Testament often speaks of discipleship in terms of obedience to Christ's teachings and the transformation of character. How might we measure or at least acknowledge this aspect which doesn't lend itself to easy quantification?
Kyle that's a great point. I asked a Seminary president once how we measure spiritual growth. He said, "you just know". While I don't really like that answer, I think that your point was what he was trying to get at. I'm planning to measure "Discipleship opportunities" because I am more certain I can quantify those. I think relationship is really the only way to "know."
I like how Paul captures this in 2 Corinthians 3:2-3, describing the Corinthian believers as "letters written on our hearts, known and read by everybody... written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God." Just as you stated, the quantifiable metrics can validate what we observe, but the deepest evidence of discipleship often manifests in ways that defy our measurement tools - in transformed lives that serve as living testimonies of God's work. I love what you're doing!
I really appreciate your attempt here to outline something practical. One of the issues I find in trying to measure spiritual growth among people is that it’s not linear. Growth almost has an inversion point where it looks like de growth when there’s actually a cooling of things that are unhealthy or unhelpful for the spiritual journey. I wonder how you would quantify things like the midlife passage/the dark night of the soul/the wall/seasons of disorientation in terms of maturity?
I can imagine what is challenging about these experiences is that they are almost impossible to pinpoint outside of relational intimacy. And that may be part of the problem: community is very hard to scale organizationally, and community is also the context of formation.
I totally understand what you're talking about. Some friends had a stillborn child. They came out stronger in faith after a year or so. How do I quantify that? I probably can't... 🤷♂️
Great piece Justin! As a pastor of a church plant, I found a Growth Chart Calculator to be extremely useful. It tracked all statistics (attendance, small groups, salvation decisions, baptisms, how many volunteered, how many people came for prayer, how many attended our growth process, and took next steps). It then allowed me to quantify a point system on what mattered most to our church. ID: attendance 1 pt per person, salvation 10 pt per person, and so on)
I once heard someone saying “the second most dangerous thing you can do is try to measure spiritual growth. the most dangerous is to not measure spiritual growth”
I think the method you outlined is super helpful and seems to be based around relationships which is a big plus. Measuring discipleship is complex and sticky, but it’s also necessary, so props to you for working towards that.
Thanks for the encouragement and the caution! I agree it's a difficult thing to do, but I'm convinced I need a better answer than: "it seems like we're doing pretty good".
What I gather about this post is that you have a leader making pathway. I cannot appreciate how difficult it is to do and measure discipleship with 1500 people, so I appreciate you trying to dive into this task. I think larger churches are burdened with institutional organizational development that can overshadow discipleship. For a large church to run it needs volunteers and leaders, and that then becomes the definition of disciple. That is the case somewhat at my church of 1500 people where I attend.
I like the concept of my logo with three circles. The first circle is Jesus who imprints on the next circle who imprints on the next circle. You could draw out a family tree this way. I am doing discipleship with five people and I know whether or not they are currently making disciples.
What if we put discipleship into two buckets – lifelong learning and apprenticeship? I don’t prefer the word apprenticeship as Mark Comer does, but for me it describes an intentional, immersive, devoted season of someone’s life where they are learning. As we have discussed, I think Jesus’ intends for us to “make disciples by baptizing them and teaching them to obey his commands.” A disciple is someone who learns the commands of Christ. This can be done in 12 weeks or 50 weeks or longer. For the American Christian it seems that a “semester” (12-15 weeks) is doable.
It would probably take about five years for everyone in your church to go through discipleship that focuses on these commands- if people actually take the step to make a disciple.
“Learning” in apprenticeship fashion is also very relational, and so people are sharing their lives with one another- in 1 Thessalonians 2:8 style.
The fruit I have seen from this is baptism, repentance, and reconciliation with brothers, true friendships being forged, marriages getting stronger, and disciples making disciples.
That’s a good point, and I appreciate the constructive criticism! I do want to measure the “apprenticeship” part of it too. We run classes each semester, and will start more intentional groups of 5 or less (robbie gallaty style) soon. I want to value that more than just simply attending a men’s retreat, but I’m still struggling with the “how” part of that. Any advice would be appreciated.
You mentioned the importance of knowing people’s stories. I would say that’s an important milestone in a believer‘s life – to share their testimony. When does your church give space for this? Sunday worship? Men’s retreats? Small groups?
I think you're very wise to ask these questions, Justin. There's an old marketing truism that applies strongly to church leadership: "We get what we measure."
If we measure success by attendance, we'll create systems and programs and processes designed to increase attendance. Of course, mere attendance isn't bad... but it may not be a great way to measure success in ministry. Measuring the wrong thing will almost always get us what we're measuring, so we have to make sure we're measuring the right things... things that tell us the truth about our efforts.
Simplistically speaking, disciple-making is a multiplicative effort. Established leaders work with potential leaders. Potential leaders grow into leaders who also need to learn how to spot and train other potential leaders. This is the pattern of Jesus > Paul > Timothy > Faithful Men who can > teach others. In my opinion, we tend to believe this can be accomplished relatively quickly. It's easy to find leaders who have been serving on their own and put them to work. It's harder to find non-leaders and incubate them to the point where they're spiritually self-sustaining and able to help others be as mature. America doesn't have a discipleship/apprentice tradition any longer, so your job is to turn a very big ship. That doesn't happen quickly, and mobilizing an already-ready group looks suspiciously like success. It's GREAT, but it's not exactly making disciples at that stage.
Discipleship can only be measured individually, by someone who is both mature in the faith and who knows the individual well. When the leaders gather all of that data in one place, only then can we see the progress we're making. It can't be done accurately while also being impersonal.
May I suggest an approach I've been working on? In 2 Peter 1, we read about adding to our faith goodness, adding to our goodness knowledge, and so on. While some disagree, I do see that as a path toward maturity:
Faith
Goodness
Knowledge
Self-Control
Perseverance
Godliness
Mutual Affection
Love
In my experience, most people are somewhere between not having faith and not having self-control. When we see someone who has faith, exhibits goodness, has gained some level of knowledge, and then displays self-control, we usually consider them a mature (or maturing) believer. Because the list ends with Love - as God describes Himself - it seems that adding true, agape love is the final step in what we can become here on earth. We want to jump right to love, but it's clear that, for most, that's going to take some time.
I recommend that leaders have a spreadsheet for each person they're discipling, and are able to identify where the disciple needs work. This helps the leader know what to talk about, helps the student know where they should be changing, and lets another leader know - if needed - where anyone in the church might stand with regard to spiritual maturity and leadership potential.
Then, with THAT info available, you will be able to chart and aggregate the corporate growth over time of the individual members of your congregation.
Sorry for the long response... I'm praying for you now.
Hey Justin, what program(s) are you planning to use to keep track of this data?
P.S. enjoyed this piece!
I’m betting Elexio is pretty similar to Planning Center. I was thinking that their Workflows tool could work really well for this. Each stage in the pathway could be created as a Step in the flow.
I'm likely going to use my ChMS called Elexio plus a spreadsheet… Any other suggestions?
Good stuff man. One metric that is woefully missing in “discipleship” is disciple-making. Jesus made it clear that a follower becomes a fisher of people. Paul said new creatures are ambassadors of Jesus. Two sides of the same coin.
If we measured disciples making disciples then it would be obvious why the American church has been in decline for decades.
I agree. I'm getting some of that at our church. I think seeing disciples become disciple makers is something that requires a long tenure. I'm the shortest tenured pastor at our church - 10 years. But most of our leaders are people who have stayed following Jesus after our senior pastor came 23 years ago. So they have been disciples and are now making disciples. I heard one preacher say, a good measure of your ministry is how many spiritual grandchildren you've produced.
As a numbers geek, and a person who serves as a denominational developer, I love these sorts of articles. I've spent a ton of time trying to understand how to measure this sort of thing based on a persons outward activities. This is now bookmarked and I look forward to hearing more in the future!
Have you read Daniel Im's book "No Silver Bullets". He wrestles with many of the same questions.
I have and have heard him present on the book 😀
Hey Justin, really interesting post, thank you. It’s so hard to measure something as intangible as following Jesus, so this looks like a really good way in. I’d love to hear how it works in practice. I’m a Discipleship manager for the UK Methodist Church, and we are also exploring metrics at the moment. We have a framework for what being a disciple looks like, based around 12 practices that cover both inward and outward expressions of faith, like prayer and justice-seeking. One thing we’re gently exploring is asking people to rate themselves on all 12 areas with a 0, 1, 2 score. A church can then get an average, and see which aspects of discipleship they are stronger and weaker at, and track this over the years. There’s lots more info here if anyone is interested: https://www.methodist.org.uk/faith/a-methodist-way-of-life/
Thanks for the feedback Andy!
Being a disciple of our Lord is between the person and our Lord. Those called themselves disciples must know if they trust and obey our Lord's commands. There is no halfway. Therefore, how can anyone measure a disciple? Do we know their lingering and hidden sins? That includes pastors. I have helped pastors to overcome their porn addictions. Were they disciples who gave in to sexual sins? That would be a mocking to our Lord. Only our Lord knows each one’s heart.
But if a person can love like our Lord has loved, then you have a disciple.
https://open.substack.com/pub/borsin/p/love-is-a-decision?r=3exks5&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=web&showWelcomeOnShare=false
I actually agree that creating disciples as Jesus charged us requires people to get to know other people's stories and sins. We actually emphasize that party of Discipleship in our group Bible studies and in regeneration recovery ministry. Would you agree that a disciple should exhibit fruit of the spirit?
Justin, first of all, may our Lord bless you for your heart and your desire to serve Him. We are called to make disciples. We know that not all Christians are disciples, but all disciples are Christians. Witnessing a true disciple will take time because it is a marathon journey on the Narrow Road carrying a cross. Many give up because it is against the flesh's desire. We cannot be sure about a true disciple only through their sharing of their repentance of sins. It is only a good start on the journey. What are the fruits of the spirit? A pure and child-like heart could be one. Learning to love and expect nothing in return is another one. Gentle and humble in heart is a must. If you would like to measure them, there are some signs, and more likely only the disciple knows:
https://open.substack.com/pub/borsin/p/fruits-of-the-discipleship?r=3exks5&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=email
Discipleship belongs to Christ . Fellowship belongs to Congregations. Measuring “sense of belonging” year over year means you have a chance at building a community of Christ that acts as a corpus of Christ. I love your perspective Kyle and that you are willing to ponder out loud ❤️😎
Great stuff! Discipleship is indeed hard to measure. While baptisms, class attendance, and leadership roles are tangible, the New Testament often speaks of discipleship in terms of obedience to Christ's teachings and the transformation of character. How might we measure or at least acknowledge this aspect which doesn't lend itself to easy quantification?
Kyle that's a great point. I asked a Seminary president once how we measure spiritual growth. He said, "you just know". While I don't really like that answer, I think that your point was what he was trying to get at. I'm planning to measure "Discipleship opportunities" because I am more certain I can quantify those. I think relationship is really the only way to "know."
I like how Paul captures this in 2 Corinthians 3:2-3, describing the Corinthian believers as "letters written on our hearts, known and read by everybody... written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God." Just as you stated, the quantifiable metrics can validate what we observe, but the deepest evidence of discipleship often manifests in ways that defy our measurement tools - in transformed lives that serve as living testimonies of God's work. I love what you're doing!
I really appreciate your attempt here to outline something practical. One of the issues I find in trying to measure spiritual growth among people is that it’s not linear. Growth almost has an inversion point where it looks like de growth when there’s actually a cooling of things that are unhealthy or unhelpful for the spiritual journey. I wonder how you would quantify things like the midlife passage/the dark night of the soul/the wall/seasons of disorientation in terms of maturity?
I can imagine what is challenging about these experiences is that they are almost impossible to pinpoint outside of relational intimacy. And that may be part of the problem: community is very hard to scale organizationally, and community is also the context of formation.
I totally understand what you're talking about. Some friends had a stillborn child. They came out stronger in faith after a year or so. How do I quantify that? I probably can't... 🤷♂️
Great piece Justin! As a pastor of a church plant, I found a Growth Chart Calculator to be extremely useful. It tracked all statistics (attendance, small groups, salvation decisions, baptisms, how many volunteered, how many people came for prayer, how many attended our growth process, and took next steps). It then allowed me to quantify a point system on what mattered most to our church. ID: attendance 1 pt per person, salvation 10 pt per person, and so on)
Wow - how have I not heard of that? 😀
Great piece and thanks for the shout out!
Thanks for the input!
I once heard someone saying “the second most dangerous thing you can do is try to measure spiritual growth. the most dangerous is to not measure spiritual growth”
I think the method you outlined is super helpful and seems to be based around relationships which is a big plus. Measuring discipleship is complex and sticky, but it’s also necessary, so props to you for working towards that.
Thanks for the encouragement and the caution! I agree it's a difficult thing to do, but I'm convinced I need a better answer than: "it seems like we're doing pretty good".
Justin- what’s your definition of a disciple?
What I gather about this post is that you have a leader making pathway. I cannot appreciate how difficult it is to do and measure discipleship with 1500 people, so I appreciate you trying to dive into this task. I think larger churches are burdened with institutional organizational development that can overshadow discipleship. For a large church to run it needs volunteers and leaders, and that then becomes the definition of disciple. That is the case somewhat at my church of 1500 people where I attend.
I like the concept of my logo with three circles. The first circle is Jesus who imprints on the next circle who imprints on the next circle. You could draw out a family tree this way. I am doing discipleship with five people and I know whether or not they are currently making disciples.
What if we put discipleship into two buckets – lifelong learning and apprenticeship? I don’t prefer the word apprenticeship as Mark Comer does, but for me it describes an intentional, immersive, devoted season of someone’s life where they are learning. As we have discussed, I think Jesus’ intends for us to “make disciples by baptizing them and teaching them to obey his commands.” A disciple is someone who learns the commands of Christ. This can be done in 12 weeks or 50 weeks or longer. For the American Christian it seems that a “semester” (12-15 weeks) is doable.
It would probably take about five years for everyone in your church to go through discipleship that focuses on these commands- if people actually take the step to make a disciple.
“Learning” in apprenticeship fashion is also very relational, and so people are sharing their lives with one another- in 1 Thessalonians 2:8 style.
The fruit I have seen from this is baptism, repentance, and reconciliation with brothers, true friendships being forged, marriages getting stronger, and disciples making disciples.
That’s a good point, and I appreciate the constructive criticism! I do want to measure the “apprenticeship” part of it too. We run classes each semester, and will start more intentional groups of 5 or less (robbie gallaty style) soon. I want to value that more than just simply attending a men’s retreat, but I’m still struggling with the “how” part of that. Any advice would be appreciated.
You mentioned the importance of knowing people’s stories. I would say that’s an important milestone in a believer‘s life – to share their testimony. When does your church give space for this? Sunday worship? Men’s retreats? Small groups?
Men's dinner/breakfast for sure. Also in our recovery ministry called regeneration. We are lining at recording them for the web too.